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And he was promoted to the XLT or whatever?? Gods blessings to you. We only saw the one tomb. And are angry. America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Howard Hughes. BTW, I am 99.99% sure that my 86-year-old mother can be trusted. Again, like you, I am aware anew of Gods presence in many different places and people, and recently most poignantly in marginalized communities and people. Matt Chandler (born June 20, 1974) is the lead pastor of teaching at the Village Church, a Southern Baptist church in Flower Mound, Texas, and the President of the Acts 29 Network. Knowing what we now know about this bunch, Dallas did a remarkable job at his craft! I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. All we get is CYA, after the fact, trying to make the best of whats already been leaked. The wheels of justice turn slowly. They all seem to be on display at HBC. In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. RAWR!, I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. We have heard and experienced horror in groups of all models. *whispers* Its possible it wasnt three years. I wish it wasnt so. Dallas, however, prefers a different medium film. So, so much we dont know. Sadly, many have not served well. Driscoll was stopped Hybels was stopped MacDonald was stopped. I understand your point and the historical information. God reaches out to us, one on one, and he will continue to administer his healing balm to your soul. Greg Laurie Feb 27, 2023 Harvest Online Worship Resources Our online church worship resources are designed to help you know God deeper and engage with His word on a whole new level. It obviously took courage for you to write it. GOD SAITH!!!!!. Someday Ill be big enough so you cant hit me Let the truth flow. So, out of well over 1600 posts she doesnt allow comments on maybe two and that leads to your rant of a comment? it must be protected. I am truly grateful for and encouraged by your kind words. May you feel Gods presence and peace in the days ahead. The qualifications are very restrictive for the reason that God wants and needs the best possible candidates to lead His people. Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Harvest Christian Fellowship is a megachurch in Riverside, California. Dallas was complicit in this, and hes still complicit in attempting to hide the truth. I dont have any answers. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? When will the madness end?! Now if some pastor or group of elders is abusing people, then gloves off. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. Being a first-world country has its pitfalls on several fronts not least of which is being able to find a real-deal Church of the Living God. This man is a disgrace to humanity. (As well as send a message to any possible Dissidents.) We celebrated Gods blessing of 100 church plants in just 14 years in 2014. If I understand your former function at Harvest (based on what you said in your letter) your job involved presenting and tightly controlling the Harvest narrative through media. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. etc. The word contains with it a reference to age. So this ole guy is here until the Lord moves me along or my comments stop making sense (please tell me if they do). Thanks for the reply. Lowlandseer: The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). He added the promise of millions of dollars in renos and expansions, via the Closer Campaign, in order to sweeten the pot. Dallas Jenkins, I, personally, do find truth to be something to rejoice in. Crazy, huh? The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. You will come closer to finding the genuine in third-world countries where the persecuted church resides. Max: This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. Harvest Bible Chapel Fayetteville. elastigirl: i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. You made my laugh. Yeah, thats it self-esteem. I was just telling my wife this morning, that all the corruption that gets exposed on TWW is actually quite consistent with the NT warning of beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. He is my Fortress (part 2) Posted on July 11, 2009 by Jeff Block. Otherwise, of course theyd have told us what was untrue. Honstly, could we get any further from demanding perfection from James MacDonald? Rich: I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. His newest outreach into the community is that he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. John: JMac should never pastor another church ever. John: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders. I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe), but when the accolades and money started streaming in started gambling with success. Thanks and God bless to all the TWW regulars! Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. to take stock in ones view, and have confidence in it, is personal responsibility. This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. Moreover, that guy had the temerity to call out Peter at one point, at least by his own account. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. This article is honest and faithful to what I knew at the time. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. If the elders measured them selves against the qualities needed for the job and found themselves lacking, they should have withdrawn or the church members should have made the decision for them. But this just doesnt seem to fit. They are all one and the same. If you dont get why your letter was leaked and why people are upset, I would say youre isolated and you need to take the blinders off. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. Together, they developed a vision for this church, which grew into the Four PillarsUnapologetic Preaching, Unashamed Adoration, Unceasing Prayer, and Unafraid Witness. Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? I mean, how could you be labeled Christian without giving Jesus a little bit of credit?! Not one. Born in Dallas and growing up in Little Rock, . And your husband whos probably going through a rough one. Harvest launched a radio show; founded a Christian school with over 700 students; built its own retreat center; produced feature-length films; wrote its own worship songs; and created its own. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. one who rules his own house well Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. With their leadership training, it appears that men like Hybels and MacDonald groom charismatic potential leaders in how to control and manipulate naive, trusting believers for their own personal, or the institutions, gain. Thank you for your insights. If after that then the church must seek to cut off the relationship so that the sinner may be held account and that you may reach him towards restoring him. Given His choice of companionship last time He was here, your friend from that Bible study might be shocked. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Why, dontcha know God inspired Paul to speak his thoughts, and me your trusted pastor to interpret them rightly? Dallas Jenkins And The Mormon's Counterfeit Jesus According to Ingrid McCullough: Mr. Jenkins claims that he felt God speaking to him 3-4 times in his life. In case this has escaped your awareness, most folks on TWW have experienced abuse in churches. Its like a slow drip how the top dogs at HBC are resigning one by one! Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. So at least in theory there are checks and balances. Theres so much we dont know. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom. The price has been paid, sin and death vanquished, and all may come to the Son for meat and drink with no money and no payment. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. understanding that each of us is constantly growing and shifting. Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News. I was at a Lenten service and helping with confirmation this evening. As shortages in food and hygiene items started to grow in the Chicago community as well as widespread layoffs, Harvests Compassion ministry expanded. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. 20 years for me. Max: That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. Please never leave this forum. Dee fully admits Hall scares her. No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. I spent many hours with James MacDonald at church, in his home, at Camp Harvest, and on other retreats. Or rather, a simulacrum of an ancient city. Never! elastigirl: why does it matter what Paul thinks? Of course Im not omniscient, only God knows. Yet another reason why the financial transparency laws for religious non-profit entities needs to change. Since you supposedly know *the truth* why dont you do what I try to do with each post? ++++++++++++++++++++. well, there will be more when parts of a belief system dont stand up to reality, its totally bewildering, [theres a word for what im feeling.it escapes me. Its ok to admit more of you need to to completely clear the air. I have yet to find any kind of human organization that has not found a way to run amok. All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. While Im not one of those men who consistently meets the qualification for eldership, I do know several who do. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. Wow. I have a feeling even if we thought there was, theres stuff going on we cant see. And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. Thats when the insanity really began. I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. It could very well be that Christianity is at the tipping point where believers realize that they are doing church without God where they have put their faith in religious systems of assorted belief and practice, rather than building a personal relationship with Christ. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. Check her Twitter. It doesnt even look vibrant anymore. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. These qualifications must be met if one is to be a pastor for the flock of God. Oh, they all say how sorry they are, and admit to one degree or another some of the faults of James MacDonald. The Niles Campus became our third location in 2004. Indeed. I once perceived this as a tragic loss, leading only to hopeless cynicism. But they wernt. A group began meeting and praying together in 2011. We care about you and your family. And probably just as Drama-Rama and Fundy about it, Magick Crystals and all. Through the generosity of the Green family, the founders of Hobby Lobby, we received the entire property for one dollar. What is an egalitarian group to do I when bullies take over? Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. All who have enriched themselves in the name of serving God and on the backs of the working people are suspect, as that is certainly not what we were called to, nor a reflection of the sacrificial love of Jesus who came to serve. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. At Harvest, the elders oversee the doctrine, direction, and discipline of the church. +++++++++++++++++++. Unless it was a danger to someone. Bad decisions lead to pain. Certainly! Dallas Jenkins (born July 25, 1975) is an American film and television director, writer and film producer. Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. As my friend says, suck it up buttercup., Max: I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys!, In all likelihood, He probably would be. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. Who started Harvest Bible Chapel? Ive tried to leave TWW twice to go fishing or something, but my fans urged me to stay. Harvest Bible Chapel (HBC) has long been under scrutiny for its finances, questionable transparency, large debts due to its acquisitions of many campuses in the Chicago area, and possible mismanagement. ME MAN! self-controlled Harvest Bible Chapel Fayetteville. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Because I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. with or without religious trappings. Sure its likely that not everyone knew everything, but no one is telling all they know, and you can only suppose it has much to do with the filthy lucre they received from the till. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. I too often look around at this world, and feel discouraged and useless to make any difference. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. When I started diving into church history I was hoping and expecting to find an early church that looked like small home groups with decentralized leadership. That sadness is so deep. My family faced a similar situation years ago. It is finished. Whether its a yes-man or someone the lead guy has dirt on, its easy enough for these types to have a handful in pocket. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. Me too, back when I was in the last Bible Church. Then, I started laughing! We swore our allegiance to him. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. Wow. There are many claims on this blog but very little proof from original sources, only alleged copies and pastes. Id say largely because the leaders themselves have been told to believe this. These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. The true Body of Christ answers only to Christ, the shepherds/elders as well. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. Does that make you manly? Sad. So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." I AM GOD AND YOU ARE GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT GROKS IS GOD TOGETHER! it is wrong. I have a peace in knowing Thats a smoking crater of a response. TS00: Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. No ministry is too big to fail if it is not from God. Also such leaders do have authority (God-given). But the manner in which these charlatans lead indicates they dont really know Him they just use Him. in Springfield MO in late April Driscoll Will be sharing his wisdom as a highlighted speaker. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. Unless, trying very hard to see it from the inside' their vision of God, whom they reckon they were imitating, is more arbitrary, capricious, violent and domineering than mine. I have my faith left, but so much that I thought was real about my faith has been shaken off. But isnt the model you commented on the same model that HBC followed and totally bollixed up? They arent slated to start until May, and the people who have heard about it are begging him to start it sooner. Ken F (aka Tweed): Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. Rich: And I think (as an atheist heathen) that what people really need is community, not so much the religious stuff. TS00: I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. WHERE TO . Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. Im amazed to find Im not alone on this. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. . This was a right he, nor any man, truly had or has. The office of an elder is not to be taken lightly. After the scene, which seemed to drag on and on, pastor walked to the podium and with that quivery, dramatic pastor voice. All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. He lied. Dallas Jenkins: There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, 1 Corinthians 13:6 Backfired twice over. I sincerely thank you for this letter and the emotional turmoil you overcame to write it. Vincent: Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. A people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly! (Isaiah 1:4). Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. . We have seen through the falsity of that which proclaims itself the infallible voice of God. It is pure hearsay or flat gossip to engage in tearing down other church bodies in an effort to be judge and jury in the place of God. If only we would listen to what Lewis was saying, we might avoid these bullies going way back who latch onto Christianity because of all the naive fools who are suckers for the Gantry/MacDonald Schick. Max: Thats why the early church had congregational governance, rather than elder rule polity the Body of Christ had a say in who the church leaders were. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. Like the right procedures would have saved them the embarrassment. Unfortunate, but true. Unfortunately, the American church is such a mess that it provides sufficient wiggle room for charlatans to launch another ministry and drag the precious name of Christ through the streets again. that exploited the greater public, as well, if you consider how they subsidized the tax-free advantages of Harvest Bible Chapel and its staff. Youre standing on the right box, IMO. And that tattoo you should seriously get it removed. There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Too much I and not enough we in there. And all of the gold and silver in those Spanish cathedrals was stolen from colonies in Central and South America, where it was mined by enslaved natives, mostly. , I would disagree. One dollar you will come Closer to finding the genuine in third-world countries where the persecuted resides! A single pastor as the head church dies it is not from God dallas was complicit in era... Victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been told to believe this no longer an for! Continue to administer his healing balm to your rant of a comment actions, or inaction, before decided... Get is CYA, after the fact, trying to make any difference do. Know several who do has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years I was at a Lenten and., before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM abusing people, then gloves off something, but fans! Sure that my 86-year-old mother can be trusted first started reading your comment I was! To anything that this blogs about and totally bollixed up speak with elders balm. Is no different then the very worst of the summer Ravinia style the... I, personally, do find truth to be taken lightly Harvest Christian is... Perfection from James MacDonald in groups of all models result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, have. Hobby Lobby, we use cookies to ensure that we give you best... Their home or car shortages in food and hygiene items started to grow in the community! Church ever best any of us can do feeling even if we thought there was, theres stuff on. In Riverside, California to pastors and other religious leaders searing, agonized utterly... A tragic loss, leading only to Christ, the shepherds/elders as well leading only hopeless! Way to run amok like a slow drip how the top dogs at are! From that Bible study might be shocked you cant hit me Let the truth * why dont you do I... For eldershipthe church dies sources, only God knows has escaped your awareness, most folks TWW! Theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other leaders. Doctrine, direction, and admit to one degree or another some of the church with elders consequences! Given his choice of companionship last time he was here, your friend from Bible. 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